Shoei Iriyama and Norihiko Sasaki] When you reach 30, it's time to move on. Breaking Free from a "One Large Company" Career

Tomomi Tamura
Editorial Writer (Special to NewsPicks Brand Design)

Why I don't know what I want to do.

─ ─ Japanese-style employment, such as lifetime employment, has become an illusion, and an increasing number of young people are building their careers by changing jobs and pursuing multiple careers. In such an environment, what do you think are the risks for those in their 30s and 40s who only have experience at a single company they joined as new graduates?

entering a mine　from the startSome people still believe that "Japanese-style employment has not collapsed.". The younger you are, the less you feel that way.

 Those who usually keep their antennas up and get a broad range of information from the world know that "lifetime employment has collapsed," but some people who have worked for many years in "isolated places" with homogeneous people do not doubt lifetime employment. The information gap in this area is also severe. However, we are in an era of overwhelming change. Even if you believe in lifetime employment, one day you may suddenly become eligible for early retirement, or the business itself may cease to exist.There will be a major collapse of large corporations and their business partners and affiliates throughout Japan.I think.

Sasaki　Surrounding yourself with homogeneous people and not knowing the outside world is really dangerous from now on. Double or weekend entrepreneurship is a great way to experience the outside world with no risk.And yet, many people don't do it.

entering a mine　That's the thing. Rohto Pharmaceutical, for which I serve as an outside director, was the first major company to lift the ban on multiple jobs, and I think they are doing a truly wonderful thing. Nevertheless, more and more people at Rohto are actually doing multiple jobs. The same goes for other companies. One of the reasons why there are not more people doing multiple jobs is,The problem of not knowing what I want to do."We believe that this is the case. Until now, when Japanese people enter junior high school or high school, their goal tends to be to go to a university with a slightly higher deviation score and join a well-known company, rather than what they want to do or dream about. Up until elementary school, students are asked to write an essay about their "dreams for the future," but they don't do this from junior high school onward, do they? In this way, one's own will, i.e.There is little opportunity to think about WillIf they continue to work for large companies, they will spend decades without their own wills.

Sasaki　Yes, it is true that your role in a large company may not always be what you want to do.

entering a mine　On a related note, before Corona, I accompanied you on a training program. It is a training program conducted by Mr. Yosuke Yagi, a well-known human resources manager, and an organization called IWNC, in which executives from major companies spend two days in the snowy mountains of Mongolia to reflect on their lives and finally present what they want to do in the future.

 Personally, I found it very interesting as it was something I would not normally have the chance to experience, and in the final presentation, I also spoke fully about the future I would like to achieve in the future. On the other hand, there were many people, even executives of respectable companies, who could not speak up about what they wanted to do in their future lives. Some of them said, "I will become indispensable to the current company. But what will happen if that company disappears?

Sasaki　He became a respectable businessman as a result of his obedience to the will of the company.

entering a mine　That's right. This is what Japanese companies created in the Showa era,A system that doesn't make you think, "What do I want to do?"I think it is. If you live on that system, it is natural that you cannot utter a single word.

Dual career is a "medical checkup" to know your value.

─ ─ Why do you think there are so many people who are unable to enter into double-duty in the first place? Iriyama.　I think there are three factors: first, Japanese people are serious and think that their "main job is important," second, they are busy with their main job, and third, there are not so many things they want to do in their double jobs.

Sasaki　There seems to be some concern that you have been working at the will of the company and have not become a specialist in anything.

entering a mine　Many Japanese companies are membership-based employers, so that's probably true.

Sasaki　However, there must be skills that are useful out there, and I think someone needs to take inventory of them.

entering a mine　That is exactly what I am talking about. Recently, when I was talking with Shintaro Tabata,'Changing jobs and meeting with headhunters is a medical checkup.'He said. He said that it is too late to go to the dentist because of a sudden toothache, but if you go to the dentist regularly, you can check your health condition and improve it. I thought, "I see. Mr. Soichiro Minami, founder of Bizreach, also said, "Do you know how much you are worth? How much is your market value, and if you were to change jobs, how much would you be paid?" He said this in my class at Waseda University Business School. Even if your annual salary at your current company is 10 million yen, if you change jobs, you may be judged to be worth 6 million yen. In the sense of knowing your own value, I believe that a multiple job is a "good medical checkup.

Age 30 is a turning point in life.

─ ─ The two of you have made your own way in life without being dyed by the organization even though you joined a large company. What was the catalyst for this?

Sasaki　The turning point for me came when I took a leave of absence from Toyo Keizai Shimpo from the age of 28 to 30 to study at the graduate school of Stanford University. I studied abroad because I wanted to study a new field, but as a result, I was always obsessed withFree from the three common sense of "Japanese society," "company," and "family.I am very happy to have been able to do this. Just two years away from the conventional wisdom gave me time to reflect on myself, and being exposed to people from different fields made me realize how much I had been a frog in a well.

─ ─ Having time to reflect on myself led me to my next career move.

Sasaki　Yes, it is. Just as a means of achieving that similar effect, since not everyone can go study abroad,Learn about the culture of different companies through multiple jobs.is very good.

 Even if you have a glittering title at a large company, there must be some part of your work that frustrates you when you duplicate your work at a startup, saying, "I can't keep up with the speed of these people" or "I can't get used to an agile way of working. That is.Triggers for personal growthI think it will be.

entering a mine　I, too, was motivated by studying abroad. While doing consulting work at Mitsubishi Research Institute, which I joined after graduating from Keio University with a master's degree, I decided that I wanted to study business administration and make a name for myself. So I studied while working, took entrance exams to overseas universities, and studied at the University of Pittsburgh Graduate School in 2008. That was just when I was 30 years old. It was a clear turning point for me.

Adulthood in the age of 100 years of life is 30 years old

─ ─ You both studied abroad when you were 30 years old.

entering a mine　It's a strange coincidence, isn't it (laughs)? In my case, I quit my job and went to the U.S. even though I couldn't speak English very well, which was a rather naughty decision when I think about it now, but it definitely helped me become the person I am today. After all, before I studied abroad, all I did was drink (laughs), and if I hadn't studied abroad, I might still be at Mitsubishi Research Institute. In any case, I think I would have led a completely different life than I do now.

Sasaki　I also reflected on myself while I was studying abroad, and I thought, "My main job is a reporter, so I should write a book. Then, whenever I had time, I went to the library to write a book, and when I published it after returning to Japan, it became a bestseller with 50,000 copies sold. At that time, I realized that I wasI have broken away from being a so-called "salaryman" and established myself as an individual.I had a feeling. If it had not been for that, I would not have become editor-in-chief of Toyo Keizai Online, moved to NewsPicks as editor-in-chief, or started my own business today.

entering a mine　It is a coincidence that the turning point for me and Mr. Sasaki was at the age of 30, but in whatever form it takes, I think the 30s are an important time to reflect on oneself.

 I am now in the age of 100 years of life,Adult" is 30, not 20.I believe it is fine to do so. To begin with, the age of 20 was decided as the age of adulthood in the old days when the average life expectancy was short and the age of retirement was 55. But now is the age of 100 years. I may work until I am 90 years old. If that is the case,It's enough to turn 30 and start finding out what you want to do.And the idea that the preparation period is in the 20s should be fine.

Sasaki　I agree with you on that; in your 20s, you have nothing to brand yourself with, so you should go to a large or traditional company and steal all the wisdom you can from the organization and your seniors. But after the age of 30, even if you haven't found what you want to do, you have time to see and touch the outside world and rethink yourself. I think that is what you need for your future career and life.

It is dangerous to be over 40 years old without knowing the outside world!

─ ─ The first thing that people who believe in lifetime employment and continue to work for one large company should do is to learn about the outside world. Please let me know if there is anything else.

Sasaki　I believe that just by being exposed to the culture of another company, your way of thinking and sense of values will change dramatically. On the other hand, if you are restructured after the age of 40 without any exposure to the culture of other companies,Very difficult to find a new jobIt is. Because it is difficult for a person who has lived only within the same company for many years to adapt to another company. It is not only the culture, but also the way they work, the way they think about work, the way they work, and everything else. In fact, I think there are many companies that would not hire someone over 40 years old with one company experience if they received an application. So, study abroad, duplicate jobs, whatever,If you don't experience the outside world by the age of 35, it's really bad. Besides, now is the time when even large companies are hiring talented people in mid-career, so if you stay at your current company without knowing the outside world, you will not be able to move up the ladder.

entering a mine　That's right, it is really important to be in a diverse environment. The common sense of my company is almost insane to the rest of the world.The only thing that is really dangerous is to stay in an environment where there are only homogeneous people. In the first place, common sense is an "illusion" and a mechanism that only makes the human brain feel comfortable, so it is really dangerous to stay in an environment with only homogeneous people. On the other hand, people in their early 20s nowadays tend to change jobs or do multiple jobs even if they get a job at a large company, and they quit as soon as they find what they want to do.

Sasaki　So, people in their 30s and 40s are in danger. The Japanese economy will change considerably in the future depending on how these people move.

entering a mine　Yes, it is. Going to a diverse environment and being stimulated is a minimum requirement. The first step may require courage, but once you take the first step, the second and third steps are easy. The first step may be a big change, but after that you will get used to it.

Big business people are the ones who need to get out.

─ What kind of people do you think should be doing multiple jobs?

entering a mine　Basic premise,Dual employment is not only for those with special abilities....... Everyone has potential, and I want them to have the courage to step forward. On top of that, the people I most want to see doing multiple jobs are science-related personnel, such as those in the research labs of major manufacturers. Most science personnel work in laboratories and factories located in rural areas, so they only know that very small world. They work with the same colleagues in isolated laboratories and factories on weekdays and play golf in those areas on weekends because there is nothing to do. This is the reality of the waste of excellent human resources that is taking place all over Japan.

Sasaki　That would be too much of a waste.

entering a mine　It is a super waste. Even though we have a group of people with Nobel Prize-winning technology, it's such aInnovation doesn't happen in isolation.I think it's a good idea. The best and brightest people in large companies should be getting out more and more. Finland became a startup powerhouse, so much so that it is called the "Silicon Valley of Europe," when Nokia, which was acquired by Microsoft, laid off about 10,000 of its best people, including engineers. As a result of the layoffs, those people became independent and many startups were born. When people who were surrounded by large companies go out, changes occur that can change an entire country.

Sasaki　If large corporate human resources start to flow in Japan, where human resource mobility is low, there is no doubt that Japan will change dramatically. From now on, they do not belong to a company,More freelance-like work, contracting with multiple companiesIt is only a risk to only know the company you are working for when you are expected to be in the same position as the company you are working for. For your own sake in 5 to 10 years from now, I hope you will have the courage to experience the outside world.

Interviewed and written by Tomomi Tamura
Photo by Daisuke Koike
Design: Seisakujo.inc
Editing: Takeshi Kimura

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